I Am That Reporter
CBS News Correspondent and Weekend Anchor Jericka Duncan brings you the I Am That Reporter podcast. Season one covers the trial of Sean "Diddy" Combs in the US v Sean Combs case. Duncan will be your eyes and ears in the courtroom as well as what's happening on the streets outside the courtroom. Each week, she'll have conversations with legal and subject matter experts to break down the case from all sides and offer listeners information, perspective and analysis with what's happening in the case and with everyone involved.
I Am That Reporter
Week 3: More Witness Testimony Plus A Conversation With Writer/Producer Bonsu Thompson
CBS News Correspondent and CBS Weekend anchor Jericka Duncan was given the task of covering the the trial of Sean "Diddy" Combs. Her assignment puts her at the courthouse and in the courtroom every day of the trial so she has a front row seat to all of the action happening inside and outside of the courtroom.
This week, Jericka brings on Bonsu Thompson, writer, producer, former music editor for XXL Magazine and former editor in chief of The Source magazine to discuss the complex legacy of Sean Combs. In their conversation, they explore the implications of Combs' actions within the music industry as well as the predatory nature of the industry, the influence of figures like Andre Harrell, and the challenges of reconciling an artist's work with their personal behavior. The conversation also touches on the broader cultural context, including the impact of unhealed artists and the potential political ramifications of Combs' legal troubles.
THE TEAM
Host: Jericka Duncan
Executive Producer/Editor: Scott Riggs
How do you think Sean Combs' legacy will be impacted by this
SPEAKER_03:trial? I think that goes without saying tremendously, because even if he's found not guilty, it'll follow him for the rest of his life.
SPEAKER_00:It's hard to tell. It's hard to tell at this time.
SPEAKER_03:I feel like there's going to be a negative impact either way. I think that, you know, they've kind of gotten into more of the world of what Diddy does behind the scenes. So unfortunately now, you know, it's just really about the court of public opinion.
SPEAKER_01:Legacy matters. It is what we leave behind. It follows the people we love, our children, their children. It is our family history. It assigns an ideal or judgment on those who embody that legacy. And for the people who may not be directly part of it, they have the privilege of getting close enough to the legacy to claim their role in its achievements or distance themselves from the dark side. So what will become of Sean Combs' legacy? And who is he to us now that we know some of the most intimate parts of his life that have been kept out of the limelight? for so long and for obvious reasons. I'm Jerika Duncan, CBS News national correspondent and anchor of the CBS Weekend News. Today, we will answer those questions with writer and producer Bonsu Thompson. He is the former music editor for XXL Magazine and also worked as an editor-in-chief of The Source Magazine, both publications dedicated to covering hip-hop culture. But before we get into that conversation, it's important to remind all of you about the federal case, United States of America versus Sean Combs, the charges, what's at stake, and the witnesses who testified this week. Combs is facing five felony counts, which include racketeering conspiracy, which carries a maximum sentence of life, two counts of sex trafficking by force, fraud, or coercion, and two counts of transportation to engage in prostitution. According to the government, Combs abused, threatened and coerced women and others around him for decades to fulfill his sexual desires, protect his reputation and conceal his conduct. The government says Combs relied on employees, resources and influence from his multifaceted business empire that he led and controlled creating a criminal enterprise whose members and associates engaged in and attempted to engage in, among other crimes, sex trafficking, forced labor, kidnapping, arson, bribery, and obstruction of justice. Combs has denied any wrongdoing and has pleaded not guilty to all charges. This week, we heard from a fire investigator, former stylist Dante Nash, and two of Combs' former employees, Capricorn Clark, and a woman who went by the pseudonym Mia. Both discussed having complicated relationships with Combs. Both say they experienced Combs being violent toward them and Cassie Ventura, Combs' longtime former girlfriend. Mia testified she herself was sexually assaulted by Combs early into working for Combs as an assistant around 2009 or 2010. And with both witnesses, the defense sought to discredit them by pulling up old emails and Instagram messages showing both women expressing love and support for the mogul. Clark acknowledged she even proposed working for Combs as recently as April of 2024 after Combs' homes were raided by Homeland Security. Many of you are commenting on this story asking, where is the racketeering? Where is the sex trafficking? And where is the proof that Combs engaged in the transportation of prostitutes? I spoke to CBS News legal contributor, Katrina Kaufman, who's also been covering this trial inside the courtroom. And she explained where things stand specifically relating to those various charges. Take a listen.
SPEAKER_02:With racketeering, the prosecution has to prove that there was some form of agreement among people working for Combs to commit at least two underlying crimes. And this could be one of a number of things, but they've brought up kidnapping, arson, bribery. And these are things that we've been hearing about some testimony for on the stand. For example, Cassie Ventura, Sean Combs' ex, talked about instances where she was kept at a hotel. These were after what she says were moments of violent abuse against her, where Sean Combs kept her hidden away, and she wasn't allowed to leave, for instance, the London Hotel at one point. For about a week, she testified. Capricorn Clark is someone who worked very closely with Sean Combs over a number of years, and this proximity to him allowed her to really see a lot of things. She also plays into this kidnapping allegation. She talked about two instances where she alleges she was kidnapped. One, she says she was brought to a building over the course of five days. There had been some jewelry. It was in her possession. and she had reported it missing. Combs then had her brought to this place where a man gave her a lie detector test every day for five days. He said if they didn't get to the bottom of what happened, she would end up in the East River. Now, Capricorn Clark also testified about another instance of alleged kidnapping. She says Combs came to her house with a gun and forced her to go to Kid Cuddy's house. This was the same day that Combs allegedly found out that Cassie Ventura and Kid Cuddy had been dating, supposedly broke into Kid Cudi's house and then later beat Ventura. When it comes to the racketeering conspiracy charge, the prosecution has been laying a foundation for this. We keep hearing these names over and over again. Security guards that were part of Combs' entourage who knew about these events, who witnessed them and who even participated them in some ways. Also incidents where they were reported to higher ups at his company. So they're really going to have to keep tying these threads together. But we're hearing the foundation of all of these charges and allegations. And what's really important is that Combs was directing all of this. And this is testimony we've heard a number of times, that people were executing Combs' orders, that they had to please him, that he was always telling them what to do and had such control over all of the conduct at his company. Jerika, at the same time, we're seeing the defense try to poke holes in these witnesses' testimony, showing different versions of stories that we've heard on the stand, for one, but also how a lot of these people continue to have contact with Combs, to reach out to him over the years, and often in 11 way. Even Deontay Nash, a celebrity stylist who considers himself one of Cassie Ventura's best friends and worked very closely with them, said he doesn't hate him and that when he communicated with him later on, there was a loving tone to that communication. So we're really seeing how complex these relationships are. A lot of the witnesses have said that. They've said these were complicated relationships. There was abuse, they allege. There was violence, they allege. But they also have love and respect for Sean Combs. Now for the transportation for the purpose of prostitution charge, Jerika, what they have to show is that people were brought across state lines for the purpose of illegal sex acts or prostitution. Now, this could be Cassie or the escorts that were moved around the country and even sometimes outside the U.S. to engage in these freak-offs with Sean Combs. But what the prosecution has to prove is that these were not consensual acts. And that's what the defense is trying to emphasize. They say Cassie was a willing participant in all of this. She was Sean Combs' girlfriend, and yes, they had different sexual proclivities maybe, but she still chose to participate in these. When it comes to this federal trial, all 12 jurors have to unanimously find Sean Combs guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. He could face up to life in prison here. So if they don't, we could end up with a hung jury. That's a situation where the prosecution would then have to decide if they want to bring this case again. And remember, this case is supposed to take eight weeks. It's taken a lot of court resources. It would be extremely cumbersome for both sides and for the court.
SPEAKER_01:That again was CBS legal contributor Katrina Kaufman. Back to how we started, I want to delve into Combs' legacy, whether he walks free or if he's convicted of crimes. And what better way to break that down than to speak to someone who is a study of hip-hop culture, among many other things, Mr. Bonsu Thompson, everyone.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much for joining me for this podcast, Bantu. I want to go back to a moment about two years ago where I bumped into you at an event celebrating the 25 years of XXL's special edition of The Greatest Day in Hip Hop, September 29th, 1998. Set the scene for us, because that was a pivotal moment.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, it was one of the most amazing days of my life. I was a senior at the time. senior at del state university print journalism if y'all remember what that was at one point and i was so what happened was i interned the previous summer uh at harris publications which is the public publication home for double excel and uh i was offered a job to not go back to school, but I knew that my grandmother would kill me because I was the first grandchild to graduate in my family. So I went back for my senior year and, but I would still, you know, contribute and, you know, on like off days, I would come back to the city. And when I found out they were having this greatest day shoot, I had to play hooky. I fled Delaware and came back to New York for the day. And I mean, just imagine this, right? It's, I'm a college kid. I have been a hip-hop baby from conception, and it's the greatest group of hip-hop notables. I'm talking executives, artists. I'm meeting my favorite MCs from Black Thought to Rakim to Wu-Tang to Tretch from Naughty by Nature, Wyclef. I mean, Run DMC, on and on and on, plus executives. Jermaine Dupri, Russell Simmons. I mean, it's just on and on and on. Just like a waterboard of your favorite, you know, hip hop notables of the culture, everybody who made up your culture. And I'm this impressionable, you know, college kid. And it's just one block. So you're running into icons every turn, every step, east, west, north, south. And it was a beautiful day. It was extremely stressful on the staff because, I mean, you know, it was all production and wrangling.
SPEAKER_01:And this is for people who aren't familiar. It's a picture of all of these artists, like over 170, I believe, that were on the steps of the same iconic picture by Art Kane, where they are honoring the greatest jazz musicians. But it's kind of the golden age where it's sort of ending. But this was almost the birth of right. This is this is hip hop at its pinnacle. And it is 1998.
SPEAKER_04:And being shot by Gordon Parks, you know?
SPEAKER_01:And shot by the great Gordon Parks. So I want to start there because that was such a moment to reflect on how beautiful that time was, even if you weren't old enough to really appreciate it in the same way I was in high school at the time. But look at where we are now. I think there's a critique that's happening everywhere. And part of it has to do with this trial. And that's what I wanted to really talk to you about because you have someone like Sean Combs facing up to life in prison. But take us behind the scenes as you see it when you look at some of the things that we're discussing, some of the names and details of alleged actions. Offline, you and I talked and you said based on sort of what you even saw behind the scenes, some of it's not that shocking.
SPEAKER_04:No, you have to understand, you know, Sean Combs is being accused of a lot of predatorial behavior, right? And I don't think people understand just how predatorial this music industry is. You know, it's from contracts on down to the way men interact with women. It's almost par for the course, you know? And again, this is not to excuse anything that Puff or anybody else has done. But the nature, it was almost accepted. You know, in 1999, when we were talking about the great day of hip hop, you know, that was very much like my wet behind the ears. I was a little naive to the industry. You know, you hear about Q-Tip talking about, you know, industry rule number 4008. You hear about this stuff and you think it's just like some, you know, some white guy in a suit trying to take advantage of some poor black talented kid. And it wasn't. No, it's not that natural. It's not that simple. It was way more layered. And the people within the culture were also complicit. You had major executives, Black executives, pioneering executives who were, yes, were mavericks in giving reflection to Black and Latino people through the music, through the culture, but they were also learning the business. And they were learning the business from piranhas, basically, essentially piranhas, folks who made a living on taking advantage of talent. And yes, you can throw in race in that, because I think race always plays a part in anything, especially when you're talking about America. But the nature of the business for decades prior to hip hop was always predatory, taking advantage. I mean, you can go back to the jazz days. Um, and it just, it's not, it's not just racial. I mean, you know, you will have, you know, white on white, you know, it's, it's the white exec will take advantage of the, you know, Jewish guitar player. You know what I'm saying? Like if they have a hit record or if they see they can make something off of them. And then when you, you add in the genders and like impressionable young women who are talented, um, it just, it runs the gamut, you know? Um, so, you know, it's, it's interesting that everybody who's focused on, Puff and his behaviors and all of that. And it's like, it's way bigger than just his relationship with Cassie. Like, where does he come from? Where was he groomed? You know, the nature of his business. You know, it's almost like you're almost discouraged, right, to move ethically in this business.
SPEAKER_01:When you talk about where he came from, for those who aren't familiar with his backstory, his relationship, short-lived relationship with his father, what sort of Insight, can you give us to people listening about how that might play into some of what we're hearing in the courtroom?
SPEAKER_04:And again, I'm trying to stay away from. From from a couch diagnosing, but, you know, you have to look at the man. Right. And usually when the saying is hurt people, hurt people. A lot of these these execs, you know, they're not just born predatory. They are leaning into insecurities. They were the music nerd who wasn't cool enough to be in a band. They're trying to find their power. Russell Simmons, for one, he was always a hip hop kid and always enterprising. But he definitely had his insecurities. He wasn't super cool. And whether you believe the rape allegations or whatever, you can kind of understand how these men who are looked at as villains were kind of created, like their backstory, their origin story. So with somebody like with Puff, didn't really know his father. His father was a hustler, murdered in the streets. But of course, he had to live with the shadow of his father for all these years. Harlem is a very braggadocious, very confident sector of New York. They've always been flashy. And they've been at the center of the genesis of hip hop. Those early grounds with the rooftop clubs and, you know, the fashion on 125th. They were always kind of like shaping things, you know, and that's where and that's what kind of inspired Uptown Records. Uptown Records comes from Harlem in the Bronx. Andre Harrell is from the Bronx. But while like The B-boy culture was mainly in the Bronx. The club flash, the nightlife, that was all, as far as like Black and Latino, very much kind of shaped. The glitz of it all was shaped in Harlem. So that's where Puff comes from. So he was always, again, when you're from Harlem, you are encouraged to be a peacock. You have to have more. You have to be the brightest, the flashiest. And when you take that and you wed that within the music industry, And then you have this new time where it's like you're just seeing new money for the first time. You're seeing new money for the people around you. You're empowering people around you. You're empowering young women to be in videos. You're empowering young women to be singers, background singers. You're discovering the next icon like a Mary Jane Blige. I mean, that's a lot of power for one person. It's a lot of power for somebody who may not have dealt with their own issues before they became a professional.
SPEAKER_01:You mentioned Andre Harrell, the founder of Uptown Records, and how these two stories sort of come together because Andre Harrell is a visionary in a different type of way than what rap was and found, as you mentioned, sort of that soulfulness to it, more of the R&B, but also music. You know, this this new thing that we were seeing, hip hop, where it's like the rap, but the soulful part of it. How much of and you can discuss, you know, what you're comfortable with in terms of your own knowledge, relationship, knowing Andre Harrell. But he was brought up, as you know, during this trial when Capricorn Clark claims she went to CAA seeking employment. And Andre Harrell and Sean Combs, she said, were trying to encourage her not to file legal action just because there had been some issues before that moment.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. I don't have a lot of background knowledge on that. I do know Sean Combs is like the nephew of Andre Harrell, very much like a son. There is no bad boy. There's no total... Mary J. Blige and what's the 411. There's no wedding of hip hop and R&B with Bad Boy without Andre Harrell. Andre Harrell was the one who actually had a wider vision than Russell Simmons. Russell Simmons was very much focused on keeping hip hop pure. You know, he's very rigid and conservative in that regard. You know, he'd wanted just LL and hard beats and, you know, you know, just nothing, nothing that even kind of like trickled over to R&B where Andre Harrell is like, well, I want the culture. We're not just all outside breakdancing on carboards. We're flashy. We're wearing silk shirts. We're popping champagne in clubs. We're wearing fine linen in the summertime. There's New Jack Swing. While hip-hop is a part of who we are, it's not the totality of who we are. And Andre Harrell had the vision to be like, no, well, If you're not going to give me a lane, talking to Russell Simmons, if you're not going to give me a lane with Def Jam to explore the full breadth of who we are, then I'm going to explore my own adventures. And that's how Elton Records were birthed. That's how we got Heavy D. That's how we got Mary J. Blige. That's how we got Jodeci. And under that, you know, under that vision of R.J. Rell, he saw a promising, dogged intern who... was annoying and wouldn't take no for an answer and would cut school to be there and do the job and was ready to live it. And that young intern was Sean Combs.
SPEAKER_01:Going back to 98, the album No Way Out wins a Grammy. You know, Combs has had 14 nominations. He's won three in his lifetime. Do you think at that time, again, starting with that image of the greatest day, Do you think because the music and the industry was thriving and there were so many people making money off of this, it was still somewhat new and fresh. There's this recognition that it is sort of this could be billion dollar industry. Is that part of the reason why people turned a blind eye to the behavior? Again, some of which is coming up in court.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, it's a myriad of reasons why. I mean, just like drug dealers are addicted to the game, addicted to the hustle, it's the same way within the music industry. It's the allure, it's the lights. You know, again, we're talking about, and again, this is such a layered conversation when we're talking about Black and Latino people. You know, we normally don't have a lot. You know, we are constantly trying to not be seen, not have our flaws be seen. You know, we cover it up. We overdo it. We sometimes become ostentatious when we get a little bit. So we have a time where it's not just about, you know, we can make money here. It's about power and recognition and status. You know, we are at the forefront of a new movement. You know, we're talking 1998. Hip hop is already, you know, 20 something years old, but it's very new as far as it just got rich, basically. It got rich. By 1998, we've only been rich for three years. Before 1995, we had Nas and Wu-Tang and Method Man. Those guys were wearing used jeans and smoking blunts and were barely groomed. You know, like there weren't any stylists really on those videos. When you look at like Wu-Tang, you know, those early protection deck videos, those guys were, they came to the set dressed, doing whatever they had at home, you know? So, you know, now we turn with Bad Boy. And of course, this is where Sean Combs played an iconic role. 1995, 1994, 95, 96, we start seeing a turnout. Now it's high-end attire. It's Versace shirts, silk shirts. It's high-end budgets. Hype Williams, who was an intern, for Video Music Box, Ralph McDaniels and Video Music Box, he's now, you know, the, you know, he's kind of like the director of Scorsese of that time. You know, the bug eye, fish eye lens, the Missy videos and a million dollar videos and Busta Rhymes doing the coming to America remake, put your hands in the air. It's a whole new time. So when you talk about, go back to a woman like Capricorn, she's seeing like, she's like, oh, we're at This is a new era. It's not just about money. It's not just about standing next to somebody who's powerful. It's the entire lifestyle is powerful. It's that every magazine wants what you have. Every artist, every person who thinks they have a little bit of talent wants what you have. Everybody's trying to smooth you because you're standing next to one of the most powerful men in the business. You know, Puffy wasn't just a powerful black exec. He was one of the most, if not the most powerful black exec in the game. You know, he surpassed his mentors, Andre Harrell and Russell Simmons. He did. So by 1998, he can do no wrong. So you have men, you know, for lack of a better term, bending over for this man. Can you imagine the women? You know, so yes, as far as excusing behavior. And again, it's not just this is not just a Sean Combs thing. This was accepted. This was accepted. It was women were complicit as well, you know. But men were awful and men who weren't so awful were actually encouraged to be awful. That's how crazy it is. If you were, again, discouraged to not be fair business-wise because it was looked at as not bad business. Good business was getting as much as you can and discarding whatever wasn't, discarding and disposing of whatever wasn't used anymore or couldn't be used anymore.
SPEAKER_01:In terms of Combs being known as someone that was very shrewd, you personally sort of understood that more recently when you did an eight-part visual podcast series in which you were looking at the notorious B.I.G.''s life and legacy and sort of the things that were happening around the time of his death, who,
SPEAKER_04:if
SPEAKER_01:you don't know, you should know by now, Combs was incredibly influential in his ascent and vice versa. I mean, I think the two played off of each other well, and it was one of those relationships where you saw you know, this producer slash artist on equal footing in an interesting way. But in that project, you realized how tough it was to sort of work with that side of him as a businessman. Not that you guys had like a lot of one-on-one interactions, but talk about that experience.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, not just, not even just that. I mean, that's my, probably my most recent experience with Sean, with the Biggie series, because I was... years ago. But yes, true businessman, but he also, he really holds onto his power and usually he almost dangles it. He keeps your feet to the fire. He keeps you tap dancing. You're going to wait as long as he wants you to wait. If he doesn't have an immediate no, then it's going to be a wait. And I don't know if that's just because he's doing a million one things or he actually takes pleasure in Um, and having people kind of like, you know, wait with bated breath for his response. Um, but he ultimately, he had us waiting. We, you know, I mean, I'm going to get into the minutia of the pre-production, but, you know, he eventually just like bailed out on us. Um, but that wasn't my first time. My first interaction was working with Puff. It was, um, we've, you know, we've tried to get him for XXL. We worked with him at XXL and it was always the same thing. It was always, just what felt like unnecessarily, you know, waiting for him. Him kind of like, almost felt like taking pleasure almost and having everybody, we can't move without him, you know. But the source, my late great Reggie Osei interviewed him for my second, my third cover while I was at EIC there. And it was just, I mean, we're talking days waiting for him. And not just like to do it just to do an interview, It was also to do the interview and then we had to have, he had to have approval of what got printed and just a complete, you know, I can't, you know, I can't just dismiss it as easily as like, it was just him just being a Devo, but it was somebody who just knew he had the power and the world was in his hands and it was going, I mean, it's almost like it's something you would go through if you're, if you want to interview a rock, you know, it's going to be a lot of red tape and a lot of bleeding, you know, and it's, you know, it could be because, you know, he's doing a lot or it's because, He just takes pleasure in having everybody just kind of wait around for him. He's just not an easy person to work with. As shrewd as he was as a businessman, as good of a businessman he was, I had a lot of friends who worked with him and it was kind of similar. Some almost psychological torture. But also... But also a lot of like the artists complaining about contracts. That just seemed like to be the consistent thing. I mean, Mace talks about that to this day. It's the reason why he kind of speaks with him with such disdain. You know, it's interesting because you listen to Mace speak about Sean and you listen to Cassie on the stand. And it seems like Mace may hate Puff more than Cassie does.
SPEAKER_01:Well, remember, Cassie said she doesn't hate him.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I would guess that Mace wants Bob to do more time in prison than Cassidy.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So with everything that we've discussed, Bonsu, how then are we, and I know people have asked you this question or you've had these conversations, but how are we as people who have been influenced by Combs expected to reconcile with this man who you know, versus the art and the music and the question really being, does the art belong to the people? I
SPEAKER_04:don't have any interest about reconciling with Puff or the people reconciling with Puff. He has to deal with his own demons. I do care about the people in the culture. And I've always, I've always asked the question, you know, once the art is out there for the world, like, you know, what's the ownership state? Like, how is that broken up? You know, are we attached to the author? You know, I just think that, for instance, you know, we have think about the soundtrack to your life. Right. I think about the soundtrack to my life. And if I have to go through like the 20 songs that shaped me, a good portion are going to be terrible men. You know, a good portion are going to be people who dealt with substance abuse and a good portion of people who weren't the greatest parents, you know. And I just think that as a society, we have to really stop putting these people who do one great thing or a couple of great things on a pedestal as a human being. Miles Davis, one of the greatest ever musician, forget just jazz, ever. And he used to beat the shit out of Cicely Tyson, you know?
SPEAKER_01:And to the end of her life, what was so interesting is she still spoke highly of that being like her one true love. Right. So I think you're hitting something in terms of just like a very toxic environment that a lot of people maybe identify with. which is why the cycle keeps going. And you have a number of cases you could point to where powerful people, men and women, using that power, not always in the best way. And what I hear that's missing from a lot of the conversation too is any form of God-centeredness. You know, it really is all about me, me, me, I, I, I, and what can I do? gather? What can I accumulate in terms of resources?
SPEAKER_04:It's beyond just as simple as like doing the right thing, right? I think we have to look at, we have a lot of artists who are unhealed before they become who they are professionally. You know, R. Kelly had trauma before he became, before he got a record deal. Michael Jackson had his own internal trauma. Prince had trauma at home. Marvin Gaye trauma at home. You know, we have to look at these are unhealed artists. And when you give an unhealed person adoration, maybe love they never had at home, especially a lot of money and fame, it doesn't make them a better person. And it's not just music. I mean, we can go to Hollywood, et cetera. So again, looking back at, there are people who dealt with their stuff properly in a healthy way, like 100,000. He had issues. He had He had, you call it, like social anxiety, some form of social anxiety. And think about it, like to deal with social anxiety while being a multi-platinum artist, right? To be a Grammy winning artist is a lot. It's only just, it only makes you play heavier, you know? But he was able to channel his talent in a positive way and still remain a contributor to society. That doesn't always happen like that. And again, it's not just music, but especially music doesn't always happen like that. So you look at our grace, and if they don't harm other people, what happens is they normally harm themselves. That's how we lost Prince. That's how we lost Michael Jackson. Rick James hurt people, hurt himself. R. Kelly was hurt, hurt other people. But my question is, do we flirt with a dangerous precedent when we start reappraising the value of this music according to the moral compass of the author? You know, do we flirt with that? Is it a dangerous precedent? Because how deep does it go? You know, if you think Michael Jackson was a pedophile, you know, does that make Stevie Wonder complicit with a right when he wrote, you know, can't I can't help it? Why can't I still love that song, even though Michael singing it and Stevie wrote it? I don't know. Like, how does that work? You know, if you if you lost your virginity to an R. Kelly song and it was a beautiful memory, are you supposed to remember that quietly or are you supposed to remember that on mute? How deep does that go?
SPEAKER_01:And I guess it depends on the person. I think it comes down to also supporting things from a monetary standpoint, because you can know things about people or any any travesty happening around the world and decide that you're going to spend your money either supporting something or saying that's what that's where I draw the line. So last quick question, Bonsu. Does Trump pardon Combs?
UNKNOWN:No.
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely. Are you kidding me? Absolutely, Trump. He's ready right now. He's ready to put the kibosh on this entire trial. This is a man who has openly said he's grabbed vagina. You know, he is. And that's the thing. It's just so funny about this world, right? Because we're this cancel culture. And it's like it's almost almost like we want to cancel the wrong people. I don't know. It's all we're being just like. Really passive about it. We want to cancel the people who are easy to cancel. Instead of the people who absolutely need to have their faucet shut off. So yes, I wholeheartedly believe he will party just to spite all the women who feel like he's the devil.
SPEAKER_01:Bonsu Thompson, writer, producer, screenwriter, cultural critic. Thank you so much for your time. And if you haven't seen his movie, Story Ave, go see it.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01:And one more thing. I often find myself thinking about the families involved in these cases. In court, there were a few days I sat behind Alex Fine, the husband of Cassie Ventura, who recently had a baby boy. I often wondered what Fine was thinking during Ventura's testimony. Well, he told us, through a statement, he said that he was proud of his wife and gives her all the credit for having the strength that it took to save herself. Then there is the Combs family. Combs' mother, his sons, his twin daughters, a few of his friends who have regularly attended are consistently gesturing love and sitting stoically through details of alleged victims saying that Combs beat, raped, and kidnapped them. How does one make sense of any of this? Combs in recent years referred to himself as love. And when Ventura was asked if she hated Combs, she said, I don't hate him. I have love for the past and what it was. I personally believe it is the love from others that are keeping families on all sides standing strong. And love is supposed to always prevail. But this case is not about that alone. It's about justice decided by 12 jurors, eight men and four women who could have the final say on the fate of Sean Diddy Combs. I thank you so much for listening. Please follow me on Instagram and TikTok. I am that reporter JD. Again, I am that reporter JD. DM me if you have any questions and maybe we can address them on the next one. Until then, have a blessed day. Hopefully we'll see you back here once again. If you enjoy this podcast and want to help, please, please, please spread the word. Tell your friends, tell your family, encourage them to listen. You can also follow Rate and Review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And just like Uber, five-star reviews are very much appreciated.
